Comments on Ski Bike Junkie: Shop employees are like Satan’s angels

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Brendan, thanks for keeping the lively discussion ...

2009-10-06T17:37:38.409-06:00

Brendan, thanks for keeping the lively discussion going. First things first--as for "it is interesting to hear that you don't care if someone has used a product..." it really depends on what the product is. But let's use skis as an example. Let's say someone is a park skier, and they have tried a bunch of park skis and have one in particular they really like and are recommending to everyone no matter what. I don't ski park, and I probably won't like that ski.

Alternatively, if the park skier hasn't tried a particular AT ski, but has read all the reviews in the various magazines, paid attention to what people are saying on the forums, and most importantly, listened carefully to what my needs are as a skier, and then recommends a particular ski based on that information, I'd prefer the latter case to the former.

Similarly, boots are so particular to a given foot. A bunch of guys I ski with are in BD Factors (one of our crew is director of R&D at BD). They love them, swear by them, say they're the best boot ever. Well they don't fit my feet AT ALL, so they're a lousy boot for me. I'd rather have someone who knows that a Scarpa or Dynafit last is going to fit my foot better and recommends that, even if that boot doesn't fit his foot at all and he's never tried it.

Of course the best situation is someone who has used the gear he recommends as well as the competitive offerings and can speak intelligently about all of them and why a particular recommendation is best for local conditions or an individual's needs. Sounds like that's what you strive for--that's good.

As for discounts, well that is tricky. I understand the economics of the business. If you can't afford a discount, make it up in service. For instance, if you sell boots, maybe you charge full retail but do all the boot fitting for free. I'll be loyal to a shop that offers that. On the bike side, I almost always go to Revolution. They would rather get 80% of retail on 100% of my business than 100% of retail on a much smaller amount of my business. So even for no-brainer items like seatposts or tubes, I still go there. But like I said before, make it a relationship rather than a series of transactions. If you can't offer a discount, explain why and what I get instead.

I don't expect a discount at McDonalds or the grocery store, because I don't have a relationship with them. I buy based on cost and utility and nothing else. Some bike and ski items I buy based on cost and utility. A discount makes sense there. With other items, like ski boots, service is a critical component. I don't expect a discount there and may even pay more than retail if the fit work justifies it.

Finally, a note about our local shops. They're not all good, I'll admit that. But the good ones, like Revolution and Racer's, are good enough to earn a very loyal following. They do the kinds of things you describe. I've raced with and against Racer, but he's also the best mechanic around. Melissa and Ty from Revolution are out tearing it up on the local dirt scene as well. They know their stuff and are in the business because they're passionate about it. But they also recognize that they need more than passion for the sport to be successful, so they work hard at the other things too.

By the way, what is your shop and where are you located?

awesome, this is great feedback. i think the ove...

2009-10-06T16:51:37.706-06:00

awesome, this is great feedback.

i think the overriding issue here is the state of shops in the outdoor industry and more importantly, the mentality they carry within their four walls. for most, it is business and bottom line. based on the tone of your commentary, you have either had some pretty poor shop experiences and/or you have less than adequate shops in your community.

honesty is a given, which for us goes without saying. never do we try to sell items to customers they don't need. this gets back to the education responsibility of a good retail employee, qualifying your customer, and honestly, just being a good person. the bottom line is it is just smart business as well because if you burn someone once, you've lost them and probably everyone in their immediate circle for good.

it is interesting to hear that you don't care if someone has used a product, but still somehow know what they are talking about. can you know how that carbon fibre frame corners, or that pow ski floats, or that pack fits if you've never used it? however, this gets back to the state of most shops, which mold i would say we don't fall in to - we actually live the life that most shops espouse to live and consequently do know how stuff works. we aren't convinced companies do enough product research anyway - too often we test something that sucks, and we refuse to buy! would you rather have the common employee regurgitate something they've heard at a clinic or read or their bro told them? here is an example - every winter we rigorously test at and tele skis and choose 7-8 that we feel very strongly about. not to say all the others suck, just that we really like these for our conditions, our customer, etc. then we can qualify someone, and steer them to a particular model whether we have it or not based on comprehensive knowledge. additionally, i concur that what you use as an employee bears absolutely zero weight in qualifying the customer in order to determine what is best for them.

and as for discounts, well, yes, that is a huge debate. but, it is also a very timely one, given the fact that you can basically get anything cheaper on line, if you look hard enough. the reality is that the future of most brick and mortar is severely threatened by the internet discounting. so my question is if you know you have an honest bunch of employees (5-6 in our case) that gear test for big name companies, ski more vertical than most members of the community, and are just plain pleasant to deal with and totally know their shit - isn't that reason enough to spend? obviously these folks don't work on commission, get paid hourly, and just want to help you find what gets you out there to have fun. i understand basic discounts, that i agree with, packages, rebate programs, etc. but it speaks to a larger cultural issue of entitlement. do you ask for a discount at mcdonald's or lowe's or best buy? and while i don't disagree that discounts aren't warranted, that good customers are marketing tools for your business, when you have 35% of your profit eaten up on a daily basis just to open your doors, and you offer stellar expertise, there should be some middle ground between both parties. isn't that the goal in most things anyway, middle ground? it could be argued that if you like shop loyalty, it should go both ways. and if you value that expertise, the consumer should be willing to support that shop regardless of discount or not. what happens if the shop isn't there to mount those skis you bought on line or guide you through product choices? the reality though, is that this issue is compounded by the fact that most shop employees are chumps, honestly.

i love the back and forth, it is highly informative and totally respect your opinions!

Brendan, my take is that "living the mountain...

2009-10-05T09:40:53.212-06:00

Brendan, my take is that "living the mountain lifestyle" isn't nearly as important as just knowing your stuff and being honest. I don't care if you've never used a product if you know what you're talking about. I also don't care for the endorsement of a shop employee "oh, yeah, this is what I use." I want to know why I should use it (not why you choose to use it, because we're different people with different needs) and why it's a better choice than a competitive offering.

I tend to do my homework beforehand, and nothing screams "run" louder than going into a shop and hearing the employee tell me something that is contrary to what a manufacturer says in their own literature or that just doesn't pass the sniff test. I expect someone who sells a particular product for a living to know as much about it as I do.

And no matter what, don't try to sell me something that you and I both know doesn't fill my needs but is a temporary stop-gap measure. Either offer to order me the right product or refer me to a shop that has it.

Finally, if I'm a loyal customer or send business your way, give me a discount. I know this is inviting a huge debate as to whether you can or should offer me a discount, but my experience has been that once I establish a relationship with a shop, the good ones reward my loyalty. And I'm absolutely more loyal to the places that give me good advice and better than retail pricing.

In response to Brendan: As someone new to this sp...

2009-10-05T08:27:27.327-06:00

In response to Brendan: As someone new to this sport, what impresses me most in shops are salespeople that are not afraid to tell you what you need to hear, not necessarily what you want to hear. I want someone to say "don't buy that, it's crap" even if it is something on their shelves. Assess my needs and my level and point me in the right direction even if choose to walk away.

What? I’m your trusted road racing advisor?...

2009-10-04T22:30:08.937-06:00

What? I’m your trusted road racing advisor? Oh man, I better go read some books or something so I can sound knowledgeable…

my friend (and fellow co-worker) turned me on to y...

2009-10-04T17:50:29.714-06:00

my friend (and fellow co-worker) turned me on to your blog and i'm stoked on your article!

as someone who has worked outdoor retail for over ten years, and currently manages a mountain shop, it was with great interest i read your article.

my question to readers would be - what makes a mountain shop "good"? we pride ourselves on playing as hard as we work, living the mountain lifestyle so we can convey this expertise to customers. we don't want to sell people gear, we want to educate them and allow them to make their own choice, regardless of what that may be and if it even involves us.

and i agree with you - good shops are really hard to find. i cringe when i walk into most other shops - clothes not folded, egotistical employees, etc. the challenge we face is how can we convince customers that our expertise is worth their dollar, and that we don't get used as a marketing tool for internet dealers. how to solidify the loyalty of the local dollar so to speak.

i'd love to hear feedback from a bunch of folks in this forum! thanks for a stellar article!

Great post and SO true!

2009-10-03T04:38:13.333-06:00

Great post and SO true!

The first sentence of your post sounds like the be...

2009-10-02T13:21:21.762-06:00

The first sentence of your post sounds like the beginning of a really bad joke. The possibilities and punchlines for that joke would have been endless.

Great shops are tough to come by. Honestly, until the past few years I wondered whether one existed at all.